[Thorin] is cantankerous and often cross. I found this characteristic interesting and, at the beginning, it was a bit hard for me to determine where it sprang from. I’d say this surly and aggressive side is something all the warrior dwarves share, but Thorin, on top of that, cant stand the thought that he’s been stripped of his kingdom in such a violent way. In addition, he’s suffered the loss of his rank in the dwarf society, going from the privileged status of a royal family member to that of a wandering warrior. He’s ashamed of such a decline..
“I think the burden of taking his people back to their homeland, which is so massive, makes him a lonely figure, I think. Knowing that his grandfather failed, and his father failed, so if he doesn’t do it, there’s no other member of his line that will ever do this. So he will continue through history as the king that failed to achieve the potential for his people. That’s something, again, which is a huge burden to carry. And I think that’s what drives him, but it’s also the thing that he fears, that he will fail.” – RA
Notice that little bubble of pride burst every time someone doubts him and his face slumps in defeat because it’s not like he’s carrying a mountain worth of self-doubt on his shoulders already ahaha i’ll be in my corner
So linddzz got me thinking about Thorin and how he can’t handle Bilbo thinking about him as a person rather than a member of the line of Durin (and by can’t handle I mean falls desperately in love with him as a results) which got me thinking about (YET ANOTHER GIFSET) a comparison I want to see but Thorin’s got this very interesting thing he does with his face when he’s being complimented and by that I mean it goes completely blank.
Balin telling Thorin he’s done well and doesn’t need to throw his life away on a hopeless quest?
Thorin’s expression goes blank.
Balin telling about Thorin’s heroic exploits at Azanbulbizar and how it was the day he realized Thorin was worthy on his own merits to be king, causing the Company to gather around Thorin staring in awe?
Thorin’s expression goes blank
(I can’t find the image I’m sorry)
Bilbo says that Thorin’s honor is without question and if he gives his word he will keep it?
Thorin’s expression goes blank
His eyes will burn, but the actual muscles of his face freeze into a blank mask and it’s fascinating to me. I think Thorin can’t handle compliments. I think like a lot of over-achievers he won’t allow himself to even think about and process compliments because they might distract him from his goal. So he just freezes up and lets it roll off him and then gets back to business, even when we know he was immensely touched by the gestures (“it was nobly done”) he does not allow himself to think about or accept the content.
Thorin does not boast, he does not talk up his virtues (perhaps because he doesn’t believe he has them at all). In literally every single instance where someone needs to speak up and talk about how awesome Thorin is, someone else has to step up and do it. Talking about the establishment of Ered Luin and how he made a life for the dwarves after Erebor fell? Balin. Explaining how he got the name Oakenshield? Balin again. They need someone to say that he’s the rightful king and therefore deserves help and support getting into the mountain? Dwalin. He’s trustworthy and will keep his word? Bilbo. Any characterization of Thorin that has him talking up his own virtues is dreadfully OOC because he never does anything of the sort (much like Richard, actually).
Edit: And I just realized, even when he’s stating their right to take back the mountain to the people he doesn’t use the line from the books, “I am Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror King under the Mountain! I return!“
Instead he says, ”We are the dwarves of Erebor. We’ve come to reclaim our homeland.“
That’s a deliberate choice on the part of the actor and screenwriters for the film. Thorin in the movie has noego whatsoever, not even when staking his right to kingship. The very fact that he refers to himself as a king is a sign that he is desperately lost in dragon sickness. It gives him ego and pride he never had before, no wonder Richard says that the dragon sickness takes Thorin back and forth between very high, and very low.
Honestly, I personally don’t even see possessive Thorin?? A lot of talk is going on that giving the Mithril shirt to Bilbo made sense because he saw Bilbo as part of his hoard and saw him as an object in it too and I JUST DON’T SEE IT. He says, “the gold is ours and ours alone,” and to me that speaks of joint ownership, not that Bilbo is a possession. Arming him for war too says he sees him as a person, he expects Bilbo to join the battle (another essay I’m writing is about how Thorin’s protectiveness never manifests as keeping people he loves from a fight) and on Ravenhill they split with Dwalin for what for a moment there looks like some serious joint ass-kicking together.
My point is, Bilbo moves freely around Erebor. Thorin never tries to control his movements or indicates that he sees him as any less than a partner. He never refers to him in object terms or controls him possessively, even in the depths of his sickness. So I’d say “possessive dragon-sick Thorin” has been debunked too, at least in my mind.
If anything his biggest issue was deciding they were an unstoppable married power couple without informing bilbo
Right? Thorin has clearly decided Bilbo is his equal, that they both have ownership of the hoard (“the gold is ours”), that he stands beside Thorin on the dais of the throne, that they are immediately side by side in battle (Ravenhill), and basically that Bilbo is allowed into his personal bubble, past any safeguards or walls of royalty or right. Bilbo belongs by Thorin’s side.
The thing is, I really do not believe that Bilbo is aware of that power? Granted, I don’t think he could have just ordered Thorin to give up the hunt for the stone, because that’s going head-to-head with the sickness itself, and I think any attempt to strong-arm or command Thorin would have gone poorly, because it’s the very fact that Bilbo doesn’t do such things that sneaks him past all of Thorin’s defenses.
He does try, twice, to bring Thorin to his senses by gently reminding him of his oath and the fact he’s acting uncharacteristically, but those clash hard against the walls of the dragon sickness. Actually, I’d argue he tries three times because of that, “Thorin…” during the acorn scene looked like his first attempt (on screen) to broach the subject. Anyway, they hit the wall of the dragon sickness, but clearly his words (as well as Dwalin’s) are building up against that wall until the dam breaks (or “The Clouds Burst”?).
Still, you’re right, I’m just flabbergasted by the extent to which Thorin in his dragon sickness still took Bilbo into his confidence, that he was absolutely operating that they were a matched set and perhaps even that Bilbo matched his authority….
…Now there’s an interesting possibility. I don’t think Bilbo could have used that power to command Thorin, because Thorin doesn’t make any attempts to command Bilbo. Not even on the wall during the “outnumbered” bit does Thorin tell Bilbo to be quiet, instead he tells him not to worry. But I wonder if Bilbo knows that he probably had the authority to command the other dwarves in Thorin’s name? That would have been interesting, because there is a certain deference with which the dwarves treat him, especially during the goodbye scene, that lends some credence to the idea that “Bilbo was already the Consort and didn’t know it.”
Also I think either bewareofdragon of grimapparitions made some comment that Thorin is very dependent on Bilbo so it could take a potentially dark turn if Bilbo decided to be manipulative, or if Thorin became emotionally dependent on him? All of these are things I’d love to see explored more in fic. I don’t think Bilbo as we know him would ever even realize how much power he (definitely) had during that situation, for the very reason that he’s a hobbit, and it’s the essence of his personality that he would never seek that power or even be aware when he has it (helloooo One Ring. It’s the reason he resisted for so long). But what would have happened if Bilbo had begun to exercise that power, or done so without knowing he did it, and what effect would it have had on Thorin?
I love the way all your minds work. I love this fandom. I love this ship.
It’s an issue I’ve discussed at length before – but Thorin’s way of acting around Bilbo is very much in line with how people with borderline personality disorder act around their so-called “favourite person”, or “FP”. Due to very strong abandonment issues, borderline people tend to “latch” on to a person: they idealise this person, obsess over this person and see them in an incredibly positive light. This is very much in line with how Thorin, throughout BoFA, treats Bilbo before Bilbo’s betrayal: given Thorin’s increasing paranoia (psychosis is often a symptom of untreated, or insufficiently treated, BPD) Bilbo becomes a point of reference. It’s not possessiveness as much as it is a desperate, ailing mind clinging to what sense of security having an FP can muster: it’s not healthy (at all) but, given Thorin’s situation, it’s all he can manage to do. This also explains Thorin’s violent reaction up on the battlements: an FP is a borderline person’s entire world. Take that away, whether on purpose or not, and you’re putting at risk that person’s stability, sense of self and sense of self worth, let alone their relationship with their FP.
I always wonder whether RA played Thorin as showing so many BPD symptoms on purpose, if PJ and PB knew what they were doing as they wrote the script, or if BPD (and other illnesses) has become synonymous of “scarily crazy” to such a degree that people aren’t even aware they’re writing borderline characters. Either way, Thorin showing symptoms is something I will never cease being happy about.
What a good addition! And I do recall Richard saying he did a lot of research on different psychosis (that little head shake he does during the line “… as if I were Thorin Oakenshield” was always the clearest manifestation to me, but I’m sure there’s tons of others) so yeah I totally believe at least Richard was showing such symptoms on purpose.
“But I do feel that through what he says and through the inheritance, he really is fighting for his bloodline. If he fails and the line of Durin dies, there will never be a king under the mountain if he dies—and that would be his legacy. So it’s a mixture of personal glory and the need to bring his people home.“ – Richard Armitage
Avelera 